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Featured

Buddhism and Continuity ofConsciousness After Death

RT
Robert Thurman
Jun 10, 2023
8 min read
Watch · 8

TLDR: Robert Thurman, Columbia University professor and leading American expert on Tibetan Buddhism, confronts the Western cultural myth that death is final nothingness. He argues that the scientific community has offered no empirical proof for annihilationism—only projection and cultural consensus—and presents Buddhist philosophy as a more logically coherent alternative: consciousness and energy persist after bodily death, shaped by past and future actions across rebirths. He situates this not as superstition but as the foundation for both ethical responsibility and authentic freedom in this life.

Read · 9 sections

Why Does the West Believe Death Is Absolute Nothingness?

Thurman identifies a fundamental problem in contemporary Western culture: the unexamined assumption that death means complete cessation of consciousness. This belief, he argues, is not scientific discovery but cultural mythology dressed in scientific language. The natural sciences, he contends, have become a "rationalization institution" that banishes spirituality and offers false reassurance in the form of what he calls "indulgences to a kind of heaven"—a license to act recklessly because, after all, death will anesthetize us from all consequences.

From childhood, Thurman found himself trapped in this nihilistic worldview, fixated on what happens at death and arriving at "nothingness forever" as the only conceivable answer. He recognizes this not as his own discovery but as the inevitable product of being "a proper card-carrying member of a nihilistic society"—one that feels no compunction about destroying the environment because if everything dies, nothing means anything anyway.

How Can Nothing Exist If We Never Experience It?

Thurman's core logical move is simple and radical: nobody has ever experienced nothing. The word "nothing" refers precisely to what we do not discover. If we accept that experience is the criterion for knowledge, then nothingness is not empirically available. To believe in it is blind faith masquerading as science.

He illustrates this through sleep. Every night, we undergo what he calls "pseudo dying"—we lose consciousness. Yet we do not experience the unconscious state itself. Time has no sense while we are unconscious. We simply follow our experiences as they go dark, and then we wake. We have continuity of experience bookending the gap of non-experience. This is not proof of nothingness; it is proof that we cannot know nothingness because we never meet it.

The implications are staggering: "It's insane to believe in that because in fact nothing is actually nothing so it's not a dark space you can go and sleep eternally without any bad dreams." Nothingness cannot be a space, a quality, or a state. It is the absence of all these things. To imagine it as dark, peaceful, or restful is already to have imagined something—which contradicts the claim that nothing awaits.

What Does the Law of Thermodynamics Say About Consciousness?

Thurman invokes the first law of thermodynamics: energy is never destroyed, only transformed or dissipated. If consciousness and the mind are understood as a form of energy or life force—a living being's energetic signature—then this principle applies. When the body ceases to serve as its instrument, that energy does not vanish; it changes form, much as it does in dreams.

His dream analogy is crucial. In dreams, the physical body is not running from demons, engaging in sexual acts, or participating in the events the mind experiences. Yet the mind is fully present, fully conscious. The body is dormant. This demonstrates that consciousness can be vivid and complete without bodily participation. By extension, consciousness could persist when the body no longer exists at all. It is not the body that thinks, feels, and perceives; the body is merely the instrument for a mind that could operate independently.

How Does Buddhist Philosophy Differ From Western Materialism?

For Thurman, Buddha's central discovery is that every sentient being—including insects—possesses the capacity to be aware, completely aware, of the reality of themselves and their environment. The human being stands out among sentient creatures not because we alone are conscious, but because we possess two opposing capacities simultaneously: we can be maximally self-aware of ourselves and our world, and we can also be maximally deluded about both.

This peculiar human condition is the crux of Buddhist teaching. We are capable of profound wisdom and equally profound ignorance. We can wake up to reality or remain imprisoned in collective delusion. The Western materialist assumption—that consciousness ends at death—represents one form of this ignorance: a shared cultural delusion that masquerades as rational science.

Buddhist philosophy, by contrast, teaches continuity. Consciousness persists. The mind is not a byproduct of the brain but something that transcends the body. This does not require belief in "a sadistic God" who punishes or rewards based on arbitrary rules imposed by intimidating priests. Instead, it rests on the law of karma: action naturally produces consequences across time and through multiple lives. Your choices now shape the circumstances into which you will be reborn.

Why Does Belief in Continuity Matter for Ethics and Meaning?

Here Thurman makes a crucial move: rejecting nihilism does not mean rejecting responsibility or joy. On the contrary, it makes both possible. If this life were truly the end, recklessness might be logical. But if consciousness continues, shaped by what we do now, then prudence and ethics regain their meaning. We "book a good room, book a good mom, book a good species, book a good planet in the future" by acting with awareness of our interconnectedness across time and space.

He pushes back against the fear that belief in reincarnation limits pleasure. "You can have plenty of fun…quite capable without being crippled in terror…of planning for next year or next year even though you might pass away before that out of this body." Responsibility and joy are compatible. We can live fully, enjoy ourselves, and still recognize that our actions have consequences that extend beyond our lifetime.

Thurman's deeper concern is what he calls the "recklessness" embedded in Western materialism. If nothing awaits and all dies, then environmental destruction, cruelty, and indifference become rationally permissible. But everyone subliminally knows this is false. "Everybody subliminally knows everything they've ever experienced is continuity and continuity therefore is the default reality." We live as if things matter, even while telling ourselves they do not. This cognitive dissonance cripples our culture.

What Evidence Do We Have for Past Lives?

Thurman acknowledges the skepticism. How can we believe in reincarnation without blind faith? His answer returns to the principle of continuity of experience. The burden of proof, he suggests, should fall on those claiming consciousness ends, not on those claiming it continues. We have never experienced the ending of consciousness. We have only experienced its continuation.

He does not claim that every person can consciously recall past lives—though some can. The evidence is subtler: the structure of consciousness itself, the architecture of mind, the way energy behaves in the physical universe. Buddhist practitioners speak of gaining access to past-life memories through meditation, and Thurman treats this not as mythology but as a human capacity that Western culture has discouraged and thereby lost.

How Has Modern Science Abandoned Its Own Principles?

Thurman's critique of institutional science is sharp. Scientists claim to follow empiricism—reliance on direct observation and experience. Yet they have adopted a metaphysical position (annihilationism) without empirical evidence. Worse, they have done so in service of a rationalization that excuses us from ethical accountability.

The alternative is not to reject science but to honor it properly. If experience is the criterion for knowledge, then we must acknowledge what we actually experience: continuity. We must also acknowledge what we do not experience: nothingness. We must remain agnostic about unknowable futures while building ethics on the foundation of cause and effect, action and consequence, across lifetimes.

What Is the Relationship Between Mind and Matter?

Thurman suggests that Western materialism has inverted the relationship. Matter is not fundamental; consciousness is. The physical brain does not produce mind; rather, mind operates through the brain as long as the body functions. When the brain deteriorates, the mind does not vanish—it simply ceases to be filtered through that particular instrument.

This inverts our usual fear about death. Instead of fearing that mind will be lost forever, we might recognize that the mind was never dependent on the body in the first place—the body was simply a vessel, useful and pleasant while it functioned, but not the source of consciousness itself. The deterioration of the body returns its matter to the earth. But the "mind energy," the "life force," continues according to the law of thermodynamics and the principle of karma.

Where to Go From Here

Thurman's teaching is an invitation to question the default assumptions of Western culture. Not through blind faith, but through logical analysis and honest attention to direct experience. What do you actually know about death? What have you experienced? And what beliefs are you holding on cultural authority alone?

If consciousness is continuous, then your actions matter in ways that extend beyond this lifetime. If mind energy persists, then ethics are not arbitrary social conventions but expressions of universal law. And if you can wake to this reality, you are freed both from the terror of meaninglessness and from the false comfort of recklessness. You are freed to live fully, responsibly, and joyfully—not despite your mortality, but because you recognize yourself as part of something vastly larger and more enduring than your individual body.

Transcript

[0:00] foreign

[0:03] [Music]

[0:10] and

[0:12] today's host

[0:14] amor.com

[0:16] our very special guest today

[0:19] is Robert Thurman

[0:21] an American Author academic and

[0:24] Unstoppable force of knowledge and

[0:27] compassion I came here to get us turned

[0:30] on to the idea of compassion and and to

[0:34] fortify what little baby Jesus was

[0:37] trying to tell us before the Romans

[0:39] strung him up the New York Times hails

[0:42] him as the leading American expert on

[0:45] Tibetan Buddhism from Buddha's point of

[0:47] view his Discovery is that every

[0:50] sentient being including cockroach

[0:53] is the one

[0:56] they all have the ability to be aware or

[0:58] completely aware of the reality of

[1:00] themselves and their environment Bob was

[1:03] the first Westerner actually to be

[1:06] ordained by his Holiness the Dalai Lama

[1:10] as a monk but he didn't suit him after a

[1:14] few years Bob realized he wasn't meant

[1:15] to be a monk and he came back to America

[1:18] finished his studies and became a

[1:22] professor of indo-tibetan Buddhist

[1:24] studies at Columbia University all I

[1:28] wanted was to get to get to it's right

[1:30] it was really shift and to become fully

[1:32] critical of our own brainwashing of all

[1:35] the things that we wrongly still do

[1:36] believe like that death will just be the

[1:39] end and so that's the last of our

[1:41] problems you know which is a fake puts

[1:43] us into fake recklessness get ready to

[1:46] be blown away into reality

[1:49] Bob welcome

[1:51] and thank you for sharing with us your

[1:54] valuable time today well thank you Emma

[1:57] chat and uh and folks don't take that

[1:59] introduction too seriously I'm just old

[2:03] fogy and uh but I'm very happy to speak

[2:06] to people on these topics and basically

[2:09] because when I speak to others about it

[2:11] then I think about it and then I feel

[2:13] better with the world the way it is once

[2:16] I was able to retire from one of the

[2:18] lead institutions in this culture I'm

[2:21] able to be more openly confrontational

[2:23] toward it and and that I'm sort of not

[2:26] still in the so-called academic thing

[2:30] which has become a kind of

[2:31] rationalization institution of so you

[2:35] know of not listening to the scientists

[2:37] and not really changing our ways and

[2:40] banishing all spirituality you know in

[2:42] this ridiculous fake thing that we do

[2:45] uh which is led by our natural

[2:47] scientists which is one of my main

[2:49] purposes nowadays I should actually

[2:51] write a book only on this I think I will

[2:53] but it's always part of all of my books

[2:55] now but the main thing is

[2:58] we are handing out indulgences to a kind

[3:01] of Heaven to the to everybody

[3:04] making them Reckless and living

[3:06] meaninglessly and recklessly and

[3:07] carelessly by pretending that we know

[3:10] that when they die they're going to be

[3:12] anesthetized pretend that you can nuke

[3:16] somebody and then you just die and

[3:18] you're anesthetized from the

[3:19] consequences of that killing and that is

[3:22] completely fake reassurance since nobody

[3:25] knows actually that nothing awaits you

[3:28] and not only that but it's insane to

[3:30] believe in that because in fact lose

[3:33] flash on amartot's show

[3:37] you heard it here nothing is actually

[3:41] nothing so it's not a dark space you can

[3:44] go and sleep eternally

[3:45] without any bad dreams there was no such

[3:48] thing and there's been no discovery of

[3:50] that no scientist has found it it's not

[3:53] an empirical Discovery because guess

[3:55] what no one has ever discovered nothing

[3:58] it's a word for what you don't discover

[4:01] so if you have a blind faith if that's

[4:03] where you're going

[4:04] is a sign of cultural personal and

[4:07] cultural Insanity well you know I'm I'm

[4:10] caught up in that Insanity I mean I've

[4:12] ever since I was a child I was always

[4:16] fascinated and fixated on thinking about

[4:19] what happens when I die and what I would

[4:22] and and I would try to go into you know

[4:25] at five and eight years old really get

[4:28] into that thing and what all anything I

[4:31] could come up with honestly was

[4:33] nothingness forever nothing else forever

[4:36] you say you came up with it but actually

[4:38] what you did is you you became a a

[4:41] proper card carrying member of a

[4:43] nihilistic Society

[4:46] culture which feels no compunction and

[4:49] is recklessly destroying the entire

[4:51] environment for human beings by thinking

[4:54] that well if everybody dies it's

[4:56] meaningless anyway

[4:57] even being alive is meaningless because

[4:59] there's no Spirit there's no mind

[5:01] there's no soul that's an old

[5:03] Superstition and we we empirical

[5:07] rationalists scientists have discussed

[5:10] and scientifically oriented even

[5:11] humanists is we have discovered that

[5:14] actually nothingness Reigns but in fact

[5:16] we haven't discovered that we only

[5:18] project that

[5:20] self-servingly and actually

[5:22] meaninglessly and insanely since nothing

[5:25] is nothing it's not a dark space

[5:28] in fact what we've learned from falling

[5:31] asleep every night and pseudo dying is

[5:34] that we wake up again in a dream and we

[5:36] wake up again in the morning in the

[5:38] freaking morning but Buddhism hold on

[5:41] now Buddhism believes in reincarnation

[5:44] what what what do we have as proof or

[5:48] how can we do that without being blind

[5:51] belief the proof of it is that you wake

[5:54] up after you fall asleep

[5:57] the proof is not to be proven that there

[6:01] is continuity of experience the proof is

[6:04] anybody who would say that it can become

[6:05] nothing

[6:06] since there is no experience of nothing

[6:08] when you fall asleep in fact you simply

[6:11] follow your experiences going

[6:13] unconscious once you're unconscious

[6:16] there's no sense of time so you have no

[6:18] experience of being unconscious actually

[6:20] so you're therefore not experiencing

[6:22] nothingness you're just deludedly told

[6:24] your experience so that when you wake up

[6:27] you interpret or I was in nothingness

[6:29] how do we know we wake up we have the

[6:32] law of thermodynamics that energy is

[6:34] never destroyed it only changes shape or

[6:37] dissipates so our energy of being a live

[6:40] being will continue when this body is no

[6:44] longer serving it

[6:47] just like in a dream your body is not

[6:49] running away from the demon Chasing You

[6:52] In The Dream It's not having an orgasm

[6:54] from the sex event you're having in a

[6:55] Dream It's not participating in any of

[6:58] those things but you fully participate

[7:00] without the body that's another proof

[7:03] if you would look sensibly at it you see

[7:05] and break free of the reason but it's

[7:08] very hard to break through because a

[7:09] everybody else believes that even if

[7:11] they think oh yeah I have a form of life

[7:13] I was Cleopatra I'm Elizabeth Taylor but

[7:16] I was Cleopatra that's why I got the

[7:18] role

[7:19] in the future I'll be another one and

[7:21] then whatever it's just ridiculous well

[7:23] you know I have no problem

[7:25] believing in the continuity of of the

[7:28] body deteriorating and becoming part of

[7:30] the earth and even the Mind energy the

[7:32] energy of Life Force could be but I will

[7:35] not be there anymore I won't know but I

[7:38] will be that what is that I'm enjoying

[7:41] myself too much here Bob I don't want to

[7:43] have to

[7:46] scared of it as you should be in a

[7:50] proper Prudential way you don't need to

[7:51] be scared of it because some sadistic

[7:53] God is going to throw you someplace

[7:56] horrible because you did something wrong

[7:58] or you didn't belong to something they

[8:00] want you were born to that's a fake

[8:02] thing based on sadistic rulers and

[8:04] sadistic High priests over the centuries

[8:06] Who convinced people that God it's just

[8:08] like them and they're for intimidated

[8:10] them you can have plenty of fun so

[8:13] therefore you you're quite capable

[8:15] without being crippled in Terror and

[8:16] having no fun of planning for next year

[8:19] or next year or next year even though

[8:20] you might pass away before that out of

[8:23] this body but we still will we

[8:25] providentially and prudentially take

[8:27] care of things and still have fun

[8:30] so the idea that you can live in such a

[8:33] way as to book your a good room book a

[8:36] good mom book a good Species book a good

[8:40] planet in the future

[8:42] is not mutually mutually you know

[8:45] inconsistent we can still have fun and

[8:48] still be responsible to our

[8:50] interconnectedness to the world through

[8:52] space and time instead of pretending

[8:55] that nothing is something and pretending

[8:57] it to ourselves because we really know

[8:59] it's not true because everybody

[9:01] subliminally knows any everything

[9:03] they've ever experienced is continuity

[9:07] and continuity therefore is the default

[9:11] reality from Buddha's point of view his

[9:13] Discovery is that every sentient being

[9:16] including cockroach

[9:18] is the one

[9:21] they all have the ability to be aware

[9:23] completely aware of the reality of

[9:25] themselves and their environment

[9:28] but the human among them is the most

[9:31] capable of being aware of that for two

[9:34] for two obscenely opposite reasons one

[9:38] because the human has much more

[9:40] self-reflection and language like the

[9:43] lower animals the beasts that we let's

[9:45] call them the beasts and then the beings

[9:47] even worse than the of them

[9:50] um have so the human being can become

[9:52] self-aware in a different to a different

[9:54] degree as well as many angels and gods

[9:58] that exist that are higher than human

[9:59] and have a greater intelligence but are

[10:03] more complacent because they're in an

[10:06] environment that doesn't they're not

[10:08] they don't feel vulnerable and they

[10:10] think they might stay there forever

[10:11] actually because they have very long

[10:13] lives whereas the human dies every

[10:15] hundred years and they are very

[10:18] vulnerable and yet they have that Divine

[10:20] intelligence so so they they can really

[10:23] use this life to really try to

[10:26] understand themselves so it's the most

[10:28] advantageous evolutionary movement that

[10:31] we get and we have to earn if we fall

[10:34] below it below it and we have to be

[10:36] self-aware in a different within gods

[10:39] and Angels usually are which is realize

[10:41] that we won't be there forever and that

[10:43] we better really widen our scope and

[10:47] become more and find the deepest layer

[10:49] of bliss possible not any surface

[10:51] Heavenly layer and uh and so we all have

[10:55] that you have that I have that and our

[10:58] dogs and cats have that and uh also

[11:01] there's beings that we don't even

[11:02] believe in in a materialist Society who

[11:04] have that and um and that's Buddha's

[11:07] Discovery and

[11:09] um he doesn't ask that he believed with

[11:12] any kind of Blind Faith what he does is

[11:15] he provides a curriculum

[11:17] uh for us to find out little bits of

[11:21] this bit by bit by revising our

[11:24] interpretations of what life is and what

[11:27] we are and he does it on a planet where

[11:30] human societies have been organized for

[11:33] thousands of years to intimidate the

[11:36] individual members of the society and

[11:38] frighten them into suppressing their

[11:41] natural intelligence and they've been

[11:43] taught all kinds of Legends and myths

[11:45] and especially whatever it takes that

[11:48] they are willing to be obedient to

[11:51] oppressive Chief or chief and oppressive

[11:55] high priest who legit or Shaman who

[11:57] legitimizes the Warchief and between the

[12:00] two of them they pretend that there's a

[12:02] God or some sort of authority above them

[12:06] that tells them what to do and gives

[12:09] them absolute power over you and your

[12:12] mind and they pretend that they're

[12:14] Legends and myths are reality and you

[12:17] have to play believe them what we've

[12:18] learned we have to question so Buddha's

[12:21] whole thing was the original skeptical

[12:22] questioning of what it rather than

[12:25] indoctrinating you in something Buddha

[12:27] has no Doctrine for you actually

[12:29] he was the ultimate Socrates but the

[12:31] point is Socrates is like Buddha not

[12:34] really brainwashing you but saying to

[12:36] you you have the intelligence to

[12:38] understand yourself if you really use it

[12:40] but we don't know that we're enlightened

[12:43] actually that's the problem so in fact

[12:45] we are imprisoned in a cage of

[12:47] misknowing

[12:48] not merely ignorance which is which is a

[12:52] passive but it's misknowing I think I

[12:56] know who I am I think I know what's

[12:58] going to happen when I die which is

[13:00] nothing I think there even I insanely

[13:02] think there is such a thing as nothing

[13:05] the nothing thing the nothing something

[13:08] which is because I think that my

[13:11] Concepts correspond to reality that

[13:13] they're given by reality so therefore

[13:15] since the wall seems to be over there

[13:17] and then I have a word of all in my mind

[13:19] and a concept of a wall if the word

[13:22] nothing is out there there must be a

[13:23] thing it's just nothing at all thank

[13:25] goodness I'm gonna go there which is

[13:27] what we all because we do seek

[13:28] anesthetic when we have pain

[13:30] We're Not Afraid Of It We crave it when

[13:33] we have pain we want anesthesia so

[13:35] therefore it was an easy sale for the

[13:37] enlightenment people

[13:39] but it's very damaging because it

[13:42] cripples you from achieving your full

[13:44] Enlightenment that you naturally could

[13:46] have having chosen the human rebirth

[13:50] yourself which was not an obvious choice

[13:52] when you were a grown up saying Isle

[13:54] crocodile it was not obvious for you

[13:57] that you wanted to be amritat and watch

[14:00] Netflix and make podcasts

[14:03] that'd be Mrs armoredat's mom's precious

[14:07] baby it was not obvious that that was

[14:09] the best thing for for a dying crocodile

[14:11] to be rather you would rather be a

[14:13] monster crocodile in the next life and

[14:16] then you didn't mind being born in an

[14:17] egg

[14:18] you know that would be the normal thing

[14:20] so what made you think when you were

[14:22] beings like crocodiles what made us

[14:24] think me too and we would like to be

[14:26] human like we like to be born in New

[14:28] York we'd like to live in Malaysia we'd

[14:30] like to live in Woodstock what made us

[14:32] think that I totally loved your book I

[14:35] just finished it yesterday I couldn't

[14:37] have imagined about how we can all

[14:41] obtain this state which is called

[14:44] Enlightenment or Nirvana and I must tell

[14:47] you my whole life pretty much ever since

[14:49] I read Siddhartha about 17 years old

[14:52] I've tried to understand what is

[14:54] Enlightenment and I'm I've never seen a

[14:58] better explanation explanations as you

[15:01] did in your book you know one thing I'm

[15:03] trying to say I'm so grateful for your

[15:05] praise and I'm really pleased by but not

[15:08] because I'm I'm not pretending that I

[15:10] fully understand what I'm writing I want

[15:12] you to know that I didn't understand it

[15:15] all either I'm glad you didn't wait but

[15:17] what it does and nagarjuna did some type

[15:20] of does and actually I do really think

[15:22] his holiness

[15:23] although he might deny it but as a good

[15:27] example but but I think it does but and

[15:29] I've had some older gurus who of his and

[15:32] mine who I think did and I think I'm

[15:35] very close actually but I'm still don't

[15:37] I'm an idiot still actually but you know

[15:40] what when I

[15:42] because I'm befriend I've had such lucky

[15:44] relationships with those people that I

[15:47] just mentioned and because the texts of

[15:49] nagarjuna and Company and and my Ashanti

[15:52] Deva and these wonderful people because

[15:55] they what they taught is like with this

[15:58] like wisdom is bliss but it's in these

[16:00] languages that we don't know and that

[16:02] many great Zen people and nice people

[16:04] have talked but also truly well and I'm

[16:07] sure are more enlightened to me but they

[16:09] didn't know the language they didn't see

[16:11] it interacting with the English in a

[16:13] certain way they didn't you know they

[16:15] prepared the way where someone could

[16:17] follow with bliss and someone of your

[16:20] intelligence and your background and

[16:22] loving our one Hindu or I could even

[16:25] dare say hinduju saint ramdas

[16:30] because you're his follower and he is a

[16:32] true Saint who was an uptight Harvard

[16:35] Professor prick before that but he

[16:38] actually became a saint thanks to nimkar

[16:40] Alibaba who's a Buddha himself

[16:43] even understand it I'm sure it doesn't

[16:46] have to be a Buddhist to be enlightened

[16:47] no by no means and so so but when I talk

[16:52] about it therefore because of the

[16:54] sources

[16:55] I actually seem to understand it to

[16:58] myself and it comes out in a way that

[17:00] another person who really tries to do it

[17:03] can understand it and all I want about

[17:05] us to get to get to it's very to really

[17:08] shift and to become fully critical of

[17:10] our own brainwashing of all the things

[17:12] that we wrongly still do believe like

[17:15] that death will just be the end and so

[17:17] that's the last of our problems you know

[17:19] which is a fake puts us into fake

[17:21] recklessness but to to Really to really

[17:24] do the but when we get into the flow of

[17:27] it it holds us in a in a situation where

[17:31] we can imagine

[17:33] being truly Blissful and then the little

[17:36] bit of bliss we get by loving any one

[17:38] thing in it

[17:40] is already touching our inner Bliss you

[17:43] know there's a there's a bodhisattva

[17:45] Buddha bodhisattva called manjushri I

[17:47] think I mentioned him there I salute him

[17:50] but I just read something somewhere in

[17:52] an advanced book that I'm trying to

[17:54] finish translating that the Manju means

[17:57] gentle man Jewel

[17:59] means gentle I think it's very

[18:02] auspicious that the second syllable is

[18:04] you

[18:05] I do honestly and totally do consider

[18:08] that gentleness of those wonderfully

[18:11] intelligent educated people throughout

[18:13] our world is wonderful so anyway Manju

[18:17] and Manju means the soul

[18:19] the deepest Soul wherein we know

[18:23] the beauty of the universe and we love

[18:25] it and we're one with it and then SRI

[18:28] which means Glory by itself that

[18:31] syllable

[18:32] the SRI means the clear light of the

[18:34] Void

[18:35] which means that the void the seeming

[18:39] nothingness that happens when you look

[18:40] for something and don't find it and you

[18:42] might say oh I found nothing

[18:44] because actually you didn't find nothing

[18:46] what you found was everything else

[18:49] because when you don't find something

[18:50] like you look in a room for an elephant

[18:52] you don't find the elephant and you you

[18:53] end up seeing everything in the room

[18:55] because you're searching it

[18:57] so actually that's what the clear light

[19:00] is it's called it's the infinite energy

[19:02] which is the bed of life which is the

[19:06] life force and people some people

[19:08] personify it and call it God some people

[19:10] don't personify it they call it wisdom

[19:12] compassion indivisible so they call it

[19:15] clear light that's what Buddha called it

[19:17] in his most advanced teachings some

[19:19] people say he called it Nirvana and his

[19:21] most less Advanced teachings because

[19:23] it's the nature of this here without it

[19:25] all disappearing it's all

[19:28] good

[19:29] Ness

[19:31] all together good

[19:34] and that's all I want people to switch

[19:37] around and then when they know their

[19:39] wisdom is bliss and not ignorance

[19:41] they'll learn more and they'll try to be

[19:43] more realistic and when they do that

[19:45] they'll be more free and they won't be

[19:48] free in the sick libertarian kind of

[19:50] sense of free to harm everybody else

[19:52] they will be free to love everybody else

[19:55] and they'll enjoy it then you know

[19:57] they'll be like Gene Kelly

[19:59] dancing in the rain because he's in love

[20:02] so he doesn't mind getting wet I'm so

[20:05] grateful to you honestly so grateful to

[20:08] you for having uh having done that book

[20:11] but not that I could understand it don't

[20:14] get me wrong I honestly the Christian is

[20:17] bliss here's my main point in that book

[20:20] that's what I want to get to yes please

[20:22] blizz means that if you know what you

[20:26] really are you'll be blissful

[20:28] and it's the opposite of ignorance is

[20:30] bliss if you just follow the the idiot

[20:33] leaders who are filling you with

[20:34] irrational nonsense until you follow me

[20:37] because obedience is a big important

[20:40] virtue if you did that then you will be

[20:44] Blissful and it's like you'll fall in

[20:46] love with the universe if you really

[20:48] know what it is

[20:49] it's like if the people who live on this

[20:51] planet now the elite which you could say

[20:54] a mere is a hundred thousand people

[20:57] probably let's just give a rough figure

[20:58] a hundred thousand people on this planet

[21:01] who some of them a few thousand of them

[21:03] go to Davos

[21:05] and a few thousand of them don't bother

[21:07] and they stay home in their bank and in

[21:10] their their gated in mentioned and you

[21:13] know in community Mansion whatever it is

[21:15] and go to a tax-free State like Florida

[21:17] and so on you know but there's a hundred

[21:20] thousand of them and they are in love

[21:23] with wealth

[21:24] and they're not going to be budget from

[21:27] their building up their numbers even

[21:30] though they can only span the small

[21:31] portion of it and the rest of it they

[21:33] only have to worry about but that group

[21:35] of people if they really were in love

[21:38] with the Earth not just their own lawn

[21:41] their own three you know 35

[21:44] 000 square foot house you know we're

[21:46] filled with people who are taking Prozac

[21:49] is there having to get along with a

[21:51] workaholic or something a money holic if

[21:55] those hundred thousand people fell in

[21:56] love with the whole Earth every Wetland

[21:59] every platypus every weird person you

[22:03] know they decided they loved all of it

[22:06] because it was so beautiful

[22:09] they would immediately stop damaging it

[22:11] and they would stop damaging themselves

[22:13] by by Walling themselves off from your

[22:17] pleasurable social interaction with more

[22:20] than a few chosen people who are mostly

[22:23] sick of fans probably and who don't

[22:25] really like them because they're so

[22:27] oppressive and they're so unhappy

[22:29] themselves and that's a fact so wisdom

[22:33] is bliss and the reason that these

[22:34] people are like that is that they are

[22:36] taught from birth

[22:37] that reality is scary

[22:40] that nature is read in tooth and Claw

[22:43] that every person who doesn't look like

[22:45] them who wants to devour them that if

[22:47] they're male maybe females want to

[22:49] really like domineer them if they're

[22:51] females they're right for their birthday

[22:52] rightly where the males probably want to

[22:55] just use them you know and and and

[22:57] they're really scared and then they if

[22:59] they're religious they think God hates

[23:01] them because they because they're too

[23:03] rich or God hates them because they're

[23:05] too lucky or somebody's against them or

[23:07] maybe they think God likes them because

[23:08] they're rich and they can buy their way

[23:10] into heaven a few of them maybe but the

[23:12] point is whatever it is they're taught

[23:15] that they need someone else to protect

[23:16] them so they can hire a lot of people

[23:18] with the wealth that everybody else is

[23:20] against them so they hide and guard

[23:22] themselves off and put themselves in a

[23:24] boring place with their world that the

[23:26] Earth is no damn good whatever

[23:29] point is those people they're not in

[23:31] love with life they think ignorance is

[23:33] bliss they don't know about the people

[23:35] in homeless starving

[23:38] disease-ridden addicted people lying in

[23:40] the street outside wherever they're

[23:42] gated compound is they don't want to

[23:43] know they think ignorance is bliss

[23:46] so I'm saying wisdom is bliss if they

[23:49] really knew what it all was it would all

[23:51] be view be viewed as the most amazing

[23:55] thing life and they are among the most

[23:59] amazing people just somewhat deluded

[24:01] still and able to magnify that delusion

[24:04] because of the wealth to sort of hellish

[24:07] Heights and they're imprisoned in their

[24:10] golden cages and they're showing it they

[24:13] show it by what do they want when they

[24:14] have hundreds of billions they want to

[24:16] go to [ __ ] Mars excuse my language

[24:18] they want to go to Mars why is it that

[24:21] so many people uh are already have that

[24:26] potential for enlightenment but so many

[24:27] few people ever actually reach

[24:30] Enlightenment well hey this is this I

[24:33] know this question my my first book on

[24:36] this popular genre

[24:38] was called inner Revolution

[24:40] and in that I spoke about a cool

[24:43] Revolution which was Buddha's Revolution

[24:45] which was not hot in other words it

[24:47] wasn't just changing the rulers in an

[24:49] authoritarian nasty place it was

[24:51] changing the people in their heart to

[24:54] make their own Hearts not nasty you know

[24:57] and that's a cool Revolution that's an

[24:59] educational Revolution you know it's a

[25:01] thing like that whereas all the cool

[25:03] heroes where are they what do you mean

[25:05] this has been happening for thousands of

[25:07] years well where are they we have one or

[25:09] two of saints here and there but like

[25:11] forget it everybody is doggy dog so

[25:14] that's BSU and I was almost stuck and

[25:16] then

[25:17] what came in my mind and that it was a

[25:19] talk show sort of thing because I

[25:21] actually in those days you could promote

[25:23] a book with a tour

[25:25] and uh and uh and then a picture came in

[25:29] my mind of a family squabble and uh and

[25:32] I realized who's in the middle of the

[25:34] wrestling trying to cool the stupid hot

[25:36] tempers down

[25:38] of which I grew up with a very hot

[25:40] contemporary

[25:41] older brother

[25:43] and it was there was a woman in there

[25:45] there was a mom or there was a sister

[25:48] and they were like no no you didn't

[25:50] really mean that no no only you don't

[25:52] want to do that no you don't want to hit

[25:53] each other no no no stop this and then

[25:56] getting blows in the middle

[25:58] and stopping it

[26:00] and who's the glue that has held every

[26:02] family together in the middle of this

[26:04] militarized authoritarian eyes emotional

[26:07] plague ridden cultures that we've grown

[26:10] up in

[26:11] the women but

[26:13] in general the women

[26:16] we're cool in a crisis situation their

[26:20] brain the neuroscientists tell us emits

[26:23] neural oxytocin

[26:25] and they get they look for allies they

[26:28] look around and see if there's some

[26:29] Alternatives they look for options

[26:32] the male in that same situation simply

[26:34] blows up and charges straight ahead and

[26:36] Smash down whatever seems to be in front

[26:38] of them including someone they actually

[26:40] love when they're calm

[26:42] for example often and so

[26:45] what is Enlightenment Enlightenment we

[26:47] see we're wrong to have the idea that

[26:49] Enlightenment is some sort of Genius who

[26:51] can talk a lot

[26:52] whereas really Enlightenment is kindness

[26:54] a person who's kind so so my point is

[26:59] if you realize that Enlightenment is

[27:02] Compassionate Care love kindness and

[27:06] then you realize that you feel good when

[27:08] you are kind

[27:09] and you feel maybe sometimes you're

[27:11] taken advantage of when you're kind and

[27:12] compassionate and other other

[27:14] considering an altruistic you do feel

[27:18] good when you do it sometimes maybe

[27:19] you're taking advantage of and then you

[27:21] you reinterpret the whole experience as

[27:23] bad because somebody took advantage of

[27:25] you but actually you naturally feel good

[27:28] then you realize for you that

[27:29] Enlightenment is as Enlightenment does

[27:32] you know Buddha is as Buddha does and

[27:35] that soul that we have that Jesus saw

[27:38] that Buddha saw that the great

[27:40] upanishadic Masters saw that Confucius

[27:42] saw that laosu saw the Pythagoras saw

[27:45] that Socrates solids or Astra saw all in

[27:48] the middle of all these Empires and

[27:50] these big rulers and these people with

[27:52] the emotional plague violent people

[27:54] Roman Emperor Chinese Emperors and so on

[27:59] but still this the soul is there of the

[28:02] good soul of the of the sentient being

[28:04] who is a vessel of this infinite life

[28:08] of this wonderful energy that is is the

[28:11] life energy that is the more powerful

[28:13] energy the good energy that's more

[28:16] powerful than evil and selfishness and

[28:18] stupidity and limitation and is

[28:20] unbounded and it's in its in its reality

[28:24] and the the tiniest of it that we turn

[28:27] toward it we are illuminated to attend

[28:30] on the tiny bits Kimball said you know

[28:33] and that's why why do you love talking

[28:35] to people I'm a thought that you do

[28:37] wonderful podcasts and you try to lift

[28:40] people's thinking there's a livelihood

[28:42] component but you do it because you love

[28:45] talking to them people you may not know

[28:47] Amber taught the name

[28:49] comes from Amrita

[28:51] which is a Sanskrit word for deathless

[28:55] it literally means without death free of

[28:58] death

[28:59] and death free

[29:01] and what that me is is a word for put us

[29:05] Enlightenment he said in his final

[29:07] moment that when he in the great moment

[29:09] he achieved Enlightenment he said I have

[29:11] found

[29:12] an experience I have experience a

[29:14] reality that is like a deathless Elixir

[29:21] like just like America's name like a

[29:24] deathless elixir

[29:26] and it is it is profound

[29:28] it is it is peaceful it is uncomplicated

[29:33] it is unelabra rather unelaborated

[29:36] perhaps you see it is clear light

[29:40] it is transparent that means

[29:42] transparency and it is uncreated meaning

[29:46] it's always been that way like a

[29:50] deathless Elixir is the reality I have

[29:53] discovered I have experienced I have

[29:56] found that's what he said then he said

[29:58] whoever I teach it to they might not

[30:01] understand it so I'm going to stay by

[30:03] myself here in the garden of the forest

[30:06] and remain silent he said that he made

[30:10] that expression of

[30:11] non-dogmatic diffidence afterwards but

[30:15] because in a way what he's saying by

[30:17] doing that is is putting the

[30:19] responsibility back on all of us

[30:21] but it is we cannot simply pick up on

[30:24] some formula or some Credo or some

[30:26] Mantra and that will cause us to be

[30:29] enlightened we cannot expect it from the

[30:31] outside we have it in the side and

[30:35] therefore even with his silence seeing

[30:37] us like that he is faithful he has the

[30:40] faith he has the confidence he sees us

[30:42] as reaching our own enlightenment

[30:45] so it's not only that here but if any

[30:47] wants to avoid dogma and he wants to

[30:49] avoid absolutizing whatever he might say

[30:51] so that we will think about it carefully

[30:54] and use it ourselves rather than think

[30:56] of it as some absolute Dogma because one

[30:59] of all our human problems since it is

[31:01] highly evolved being that's a human

[31:03] is that we are

[31:05] indoctrinated and brainwashed and and

[31:08] suppressed or in our intelligence our

[31:11] natural intelligence which is perfectly

[31:13] suited to understand reality thoroughly

[31:16] ourselves but we're suppressed it's

[31:18] dampened down we're like a horse with

[31:21] blinders on it we're dampened down for

[31:24] us not to be able to see so why should

[31:26] we meditate

[31:28] so the point is when you meditate to not

[31:32] be there

[31:33] you are you are actually simply

[31:37] realizing the psychotic culture that we

[31:41] live in where we're not you have no

[31:44] value as an individual you're basically

[31:46] nothing and you'll think oh I'm in a I'm

[31:49] just space

[31:50] and then you'll talk about you like

[31:52] there are Zen people who run around and

[31:53] say oh yeah you get really spaced out

[31:55] that's the whole big thing it should be

[31:57] spaced out that's Enlightenment and that

[31:59] is not enlightenment that's a trap

[32:02] actually that's a psychotic trap and

[32:05] it's also thinking that a psychotic trap

[32:07] is nirvana so my teacher did what honest

[32:10] Buddhist teachers always do

[32:12] in in Buddhist cultures is they don't

[32:15] let you meditate right away actually if

[32:18] you come say I want to meditate to the

[32:19] guruji olamaji roshuji they say no you

[32:22] can't meditate you first go read a few

[32:24] sutras you first read of some formal

[32:27] life stories of the Buddha you first get

[32:29] like connected to your family Descartes

[32:32] calls it meditating as meditations

[32:35] the analytic thinking and he reached to

[32:38] Buddhist point where he couldn't find

[32:39] himself but but then he at least

[32:42] resuscitated his thinking said well as

[32:44] long as I keep thinking I'm here

[32:46] but he didn't because he didn't have a

[32:49] zen master to help him further to be

[32:51] both simultaneously there and not there

[32:54] which is Enlightenment so in other words

[32:55] we're capable of understanding ourselves

[32:57] and the world and that we were totally

[32:59] interconnected

[33:01] a bit of the life force infinitely

[33:04] interconnected with everyone else

[33:05] ultimately the same as all of them we're

[33:08] all one my first teacher anytime I

[33:11] started slipping out of my body when I

[33:13] first started meditating really strongly

[33:14] he would show up if it was three in the

[33:17] morning and behind a tree in the garden

[33:19] he'd be pretending you couldn't sleep

[33:21] and walk the dog and accidentally

[33:23] discovered me but actually it was

[33:25] Clairvoyant and knew where my mind was

[33:26] and I was slipping out of body

[33:29] and then you can get in the state do a

[33:31] dualistic state where you becomes like

[33:33] your Prozac you're meditating you go off

[33:36] and you just you anesthetize yourself in

[33:38] a way which doesn't improve how you have

[33:40] to come back and relate because it

[33:41] doesn't change the underlying pattern

[33:44] you could only change down the lighting

[33:45] pattern by going in with pattern on

[33:47] weaving and relief

[33:49] and you have to do that right away then

[33:52] you learn to do that and then when you

[33:54] use meditation to do that it's more

[33:55] powerful and then that's useful

[33:57] meditation that becomes realization but

[34:00] before that meditation becomes simply

[34:02] deepening wherever you are at

[34:04] and where you are at when you're filled

[34:07] with misk knowing and it completely has

[34:09] shielded your inner Buddha nature soul

[34:12] you're not usually going to do that but

[34:14] when you redefine Enlightenment as a

[34:16] beneficial loving interconnectedness

[34:18] rather than just a bright light bulb

[34:20] going off and being a junior Einstein

[34:22] but you redo that then you realize there

[34:24] are lots of cool heroes and even I'm

[34:27] enlightened when I'm nice have you met

[34:29] have you actually met people that have

[34:31] you met people that you would say were

[34:34] enlightened beings in your life

[34:37] but you know I met my vision is fallible

[34:40] because I'm not perfectly enlightened

[34:42] myself

[34:43] I mean nothing like you I think I've

[34:45] recognized by now I didn't always

[34:48] and actually my one of my first and most

[34:50] amazing gurus or llamas to Mongolian guy

[34:53] who was a Layman by the way

[34:55] but he wasn't among although he he tried

[34:59] to create a monastery

[35:01] and and because people do need that he

[35:03] refused to be my Guru

[35:06] and I said of course you were my girl

[35:07] and you even know when I'm meditating

[35:09] the wrong way and you interrupt me from

[35:11] when I'm far away now I don't know let's

[35:13] see here what they say but I I'm not

[35:15] your Guru he said

[35:16] I'm just your friend he said I said well

[35:20] yeah that's okay and B he said if I was

[35:24] your Guru when I tell you something

[35:26] about yourself that you don't like and

[35:28] you become angry with me that's a big

[35:30] sin for you

[35:32] so therefore I'm just your friend and

[35:34] yeah you can lose your temper at your

[35:36] friend nowadays then you might

[35:37] reconsider your friend's advice later

[35:39] and I've heard you say or someone say

[35:41] that the Dalai Lama was also your friend

[35:44] he is my girl yes well he is when he's

[35:48] being a guru

[35:49] so for years

[35:51] and I maybe it is all the time now I

[35:53] have to say almost I think when I

[35:54] finally maybe because I'm getting a

[35:56] little close maybe it'll only be the

[35:58] moment of death and I won't go into

[36:00] regular Bardo I'll go into the clear

[36:02] light or something maybe I don't know

[36:04] I'm getting close and maybe when I

[36:06] really see Dalai Lama as Buddha

[36:09] I will I'll finally

[36:12] reach where I think I can maybe claim a

[36:15] little something if it's useful in a

[36:17] particular context what you said in your

[36:19] book

[36:20] um yeah

[36:22] operation prize yes

[36:24] and what you what you said in your book

[36:26] was that you don't uh think you're yet

[36:30] enlightened you're a work in progress

[36:32] huh yeah and yet you describe all of

[36:36] these inner experiences like

[36:41] where do you get that experience to talk

[36:44] about these things if you haven't

[36:46] yourself touched Enlightenment at least

[36:48] for a moment as an Enlightenment a

[36:51] permanent thing or does it come and go

[36:52] it is permanent

[36:54] it's totally good but it interacts with

[36:58] the impermanent totally 100 does not

[37:01] abandon the impermanent in any way

[37:03] and that's why I said to be

[37:05] inexpressible because permanent

[37:07] impermanent is a dualism

[37:09] and you can't be what you have to be

[37:11] only one or another in a dualistic

[37:12] linguistic and cons and and structured

[37:16] conceptual world world of interrelated

[37:21] they're conceptually interrelated so

[37:23] those are two opposite things but

[37:25] Enlightenment is holding you know who

[37:27] said so

[37:29] um

[37:30] um F Scott Fitzgerald did you know that

[37:33] he once said it's so wonderful this is

[37:35] what I'm saying Curtis white I'm

[37:37] promoting him he says but you know

[37:40] Transcendent that book is so great he

[37:42] says that the sign of a great mind and I

[37:45] mean maybe he didn't know about Buddha

[37:47] and didn't think he was mentioning a

[37:48] great Mind by being a Buddha is a great

[37:50] mind it's a title for someone with a

[37:52] great mind Einstein was a kind of Buddha

[37:54] I definitely think

[37:56] but he says the sign of a great mind is

[37:57] the ability to hold two opposing things

[38:00] in mind at the same time

[38:02] without collapsing to either one and

[38:05] without being destroyed in between

[38:09] so something that you shouldn't be able

[38:10] to do in other words is saying so that's

[38:13] something impossible but then Scott

[38:16] Fitzgerald The Great Gatsby writer he

[38:19] said that's his definition of a great

[38:21] mind

[38:22] so that is in that's the Buddha's

[38:24] definition where he said that

[38:27] Enlightenment and man which is the

[38:29] knowing of reality and therefore reality

[38:32] itself is ultimately inexpressible

[38:35] it's because it's more than any kind of

[38:38] dualistic thing can say good or bad but

[38:40] this and that it isn't that therefore

[38:42] there is no bad or good is that those

[38:45] things are there but what in reality is

[38:48] deeper than those things

[38:50] and actually it's all good

[38:52] he says so even the bad it is transmuted

[38:56] into good

[38:57] and by reality

[38:59] and so there so it's all good

[39:02] so in the book I give the consolation

[39:04] prize

[39:05] to myself I'm gonna end there but but uh

[39:09] go ahead and tell us about your

[39:12] consolation problems you tell me but

[39:15] what it is is uh some some point where

[39:18] you feel you have to be you have to

[39:21] actually remember you have to you have

[39:23] to find such a bliss

[39:26] that not that you then are a numb to

[39:29] pain

[39:30] kind of bliss where you can feel pain

[39:33] but the Bliss outweighs it

[39:36] why because which which is again should

[39:40] be impossible but we all know you've

[39:43] been in sublist state yourself you I'm a

[39:46] touch I know you have you've been a

[39:48] you're a follower of ramadas so you have

[39:51] been in a bliss state where you could

[39:53] ignore a pain that you were still aware

[39:56] of so you know that's possible so

[39:59] therefore by by building on that as an

[40:02] analogy that it's that even that analogy

[40:05] will not capture

[40:06] a Buddha is a being who is completely in

[40:09] Bliss permanent

[40:11] and simultaneously a hundred percent

[40:13] empathetic with all suffering beings

[40:16] they say a Buddha is even a simplistic

[40:19] level of Buddhism they say a Buddha is

[40:21] like a mother who considers every being

[40:24] as if it she or he is her only beloved

[40:29] child but he couldn't it wouldn't be

[40:31] possible if there wasn't an underlying

[40:34] Bliss that it seems to be that it's all

[40:37] made out that you see simultaneously so

[40:40] anyway but the point is therefore when

[40:42] you reach that in the ordinary Buddha

[40:45] story remember Buddha remembers infinite

[40:47] previous lives

[40:49] so his way of becoming infinite is that

[40:51] his Bliss is his awareness that spreads

[40:54] everywhere Beyond his body and in all

[40:56] the other bodies of all the other beings

[40:58] that both he was himself and then second

[41:01] one is all other beings all their

[41:03] previous lives and all the Futures I see

[41:06] it well enough now

[41:08] to know that to feel I deeply know

[41:12] that I will reach

[41:14] Enlightenment in some life

[41:16] I don't know when and I hope it's very

[41:19] soon because we need a wide wave of it

[41:22] on this planet right now so those

[41:25] hundred and fifty thousand people who

[41:27] really could flip all the switches and

[41:29] give Greta back her future

[41:32] a little bit less damage it's already

[41:33] damaged but they should they could give

[41:35] it back less will really decide to fall

[41:38] in love with Greta to fall in love with

[41:41] the planet itself to fall in love truly

[41:43] with themselves and be really proud of

[41:46] themselves and make the sacrifices

[41:48] necessary

[41:50] to change everything right now in this

[41:53] decade right away not half by the 2015

[41:57] and all this [ __ ] that they're

[41:58] selling knowing full well they'll be

[42:00] dead and the residing on MIT telling

[42:03] them they'll be really anesthetized

[42:06] nonsense they know full well they are

[42:09] sensitive and they'll remain sensitive

[42:11] and the universe is sensitive and they

[42:13] should therefore be kind to it so we

[42:15] need people to break through not just

[42:18] that's my question exactly you need a

[42:21] lot of people we do that we have to do

[42:23] that now

[42:24] we do we're going to do that now I have

[42:28] something I call have a plan

[42:30] for it but I don't know I don't doubt

[42:32] I'd like to do it in this life but it

[42:34] will happen somebody else will do it I

[42:37] call it

[42:38] the bright money campaign

[42:41] not the dark money campaign it's a

[42:44] bright money campaign we are under the

[42:45] control of the dark money now

[42:48] it's dark it's like a black cold black

[42:50] oil you know and it's black carbon that

[42:54] burning carbon goes in the air you know

[42:55] that's the dark money they bought all

[42:57] the governments they subsidized the car

[43:01] the the petroleum

[43:03] industry

[43:05] 500 billion dollars a year yeah they get

[43:10] subsidized before they sell us the

[43:14] products

[43:15] for many hundreds of billions maybe

[43:17] trillions

[43:18] but before they sell us that they are

[43:21] subsidized 500 billion which gives them

[43:24] enough money

[43:25] to buy all the governments to ensure

[43:27] that that subsidy continues and or

[43:29] increases

[43:30] isn't it obvious so we're we are the

[43:34] people of the world by being confused

[43:37] are committing suicide

[43:39] through the Agents of that or these

[43:42] these 150 000 people

[43:45] 100 000 people or whatever I don't know

[43:47] the exact number

[43:48] but they own all the governments

[43:51] the other people are more much more

[43:53] numerous than them or eight billion of

[43:55] us if we would shift it around

[43:58] and we would he he calculated that if we

[44:01] spend

[44:02] 1.5 trillion which is only three times

[44:05] as much as that subsidy

[44:07] on mitigation

[44:09] and transfer and you know you know

[44:12] Renewables and even clean nukes there

[44:16] are such a thing as small-scale cleanish

[44:17] nukes

[44:19] you know there doesn't all have to be

[44:21] you know they're just everything is

[44:22] complicated there's all you know and I

[44:25] won't get into that but we could easily

[44:27] switch it and there's another guy Kim

[44:30] Stanley Robinson who I love to promote

[44:32] who is a science fiction writer and he

[44:35] wrote a great book called the ministry

[44:37] for the future

[44:38] and in that he has the world and it was

[44:41] a Sci-Fi doing what I'm talking about in

[44:44] the 2040s or trying to do it I won't

[44:48] give away it's a novel so it has

[44:50] suspense and it's difficult and you know

[44:52] trying to do this making this shift in

[44:55] the 2040s when things have become so

[44:57] much more catastrophic so my I my plan

[45:00] is to break money one which is uh

[45:01] creating a Ministry for the future now

[45:04] and not just one billion or 10 billion

[45:06] or maybe 100 or something a lot of money

[45:09] and making the Inconvenient Truth

[45:12] available in Swahili

[45:15] in Hebrew in Persian in Arabic and in

[45:19] Hindi in Telugu in Tamil in Bengali in

[45:23] Gujarati in Chinese in Japanese in

[45:27] Korean in Russian in every language and

[45:30] I'm working on another movie actually

[45:32] which I'm calling I'm calling sunflower

[45:36] which will take

[45:39] and try to get the great wisdom in the

[45:42] world out at the moment that people

[45:44] don't believe that conscious media could

[45:46] sell so I haven't been able to get the

[45:48] funding but I will yeah you see and

[45:51] right money campaign the ministry from

[45:54] the Future Would fund a thousand movies

[45:58] like that right now with a really

[46:01] handsome budget with a with also AI

[46:03] industrial Light and Magic special

[46:05] effects to make the points the

[46:08] quantifications and the points and the

[46:10] and the ways in which the growth can be

[46:12] resuscitated from this and that the

[46:14] sunflower movie I want to be in it I

[46:16] want to see it I want to show it I want

[46:18] you to get funding let's do it I want to

[46:20] talk about how you ended your book it

[46:22] was just so so beautiful you said I can

[46:25] be profoundly certain that I will also

[46:28] become such a Buddha experiencing such a

[46:31] Nirvana

[46:33] effortlessly bring other beings into

[46:36] their own Blissful awareness of being uh

[46:39] really I I urge everyone to read it it's

[46:42] the most amazing thing that I have seen

[46:46] on explaining uh what are the stages of

[46:50] Nirvana what are the stages that you go

[46:53] through to follow Buddha's teachings to

[46:56] get there is there is there anything

[46:57] else that would like to add why don't I

[47:01] add it in the form of a meditation

[47:03] [Music]

[47:09] so now your meditation is

[47:11] to switch the default sense that we have

[47:15] of reality

[47:17] from but reality is somehow frightening

[47:21] that it is somehow dangerous that nature

[47:24] is red in tooth and Claw and I think

[47:27] long fellows phrase that we're in a

[47:31] donkey dog darwinian world I think and

[47:33] what the scientists tell us

[47:35] that the religious people tell us that

[47:37] we're likely to be doomed to hell or

[47:40] some horrible State because we might

[47:41] have had some unvirtuous things and you

[47:45] know Jesus might come for us or might

[47:47] not we don't know or Buddha or Krishna

[47:50] or whoever it is that we might believe

[47:51] in

[47:52] so in general we are indoctrinated to

[47:56] believe

[47:56] that that we have to sort of secure our

[48:00] own perimeter if you will and close

[48:03] ourself off and drop into it now that is

[48:06] disconnected from future

[48:08] because it's dangerous for liars in the

[48:10] future you know so we're going to be

[48:12] meditating on the opposite of this

[48:15] we're going to imaginatively try for

[48:17] size

[48:18] thinking of reality as pure goodness

[48:22] what would it be like if we thought

[48:25] everything was good

[48:27] if we were like a child to see the

[48:30] universe as a giant breast with sweet

[48:32] milk

[48:34] vanilla flavored or mango flavored or

[48:38] whatever we think of as a delicious

[48:39] taste and the whole universe was just

[48:42] one big breath

[48:44] just for offering us elixir of

[48:47] immortality

[48:48] however you want to visualize it maybe

[48:50] start small

[48:52] visualizing yourself being on top of

[48:54] Mount Everest if you're a mountain

[48:56] climbing type without the trouble maybe

[48:58] you got up there by helicopter never

[49:00] mind visualize yourself being by the

[49:03] seashore in the most beautiful beach

[49:04] you've ever been to please realize

[49:07] yourself being in the most magnificent

[49:08] Palace or mansion that you can imagine

[49:10] or it's one of those amazing places in

[49:13] the Avatar movie where the with the

[49:15] luminescent light at night

[49:18] whatever you think of is the most

[49:19] beautiful place and what and your body

[49:22] is feeling

[49:24] the total Bliss imagine that your body

[49:26] feels really good

[49:28] you don't have to sit up in some harsh

[49:30] posture if you don't feel like that you

[49:32] could lie back and do this meditation or

[49:34] sit in the most comfortable chair anyway

[49:37] remember a time when you were maybe had

[49:39] an orgasm

[49:40] or you had the most delicious feast

[49:42] where you were really Blown Away by that

[49:45] Musa

[49:46] or that you had some wonderful warm

[49:51] hot spring baths or something I don't

[49:54] know it's this imaginable remember

[49:58] Supreme pleasure of what you consider

[50:00] the greatest moment of pleasure and

[50:02] imagine that that's sort of there

[50:04] you're having a dream about it

[50:07] and then by that way think of the whole

[50:09] universe is like that

[50:11] so so whatever visual thing you have to

[50:14] think of think of all the ones you've

[50:16] ever loved

[50:18] in life being here with you in sort of

[50:20] Obi-Wan Kenobi luminous bodies

[50:23] even they pass away even you they

[50:26] divorced you even they're separated from

[50:27] you even lost track of them all the

[50:30] people you've ever loved or liked who

[50:32] have loved and like you are all there

[50:35] with you

[50:36] so imagine whatever it is makes you feel

[50:38] really good

[50:40] all around you

[50:42] and being in the place that's the

[50:45] Supreme place that you would want to be

[50:47] and feeling in the Supreme way you want

[50:50] to feel

[50:51] completely held every breath it's like

[50:54] sipping the most delicious and most

[50:56] expensive Elixir you can think of

[51:03] delicious elixir of immortality being in

[51:08] a tube of light

[51:09] tunnel of freedom

[51:12] feeling completely one with everything

[51:14] around you and fearless

[51:34] but imagine this in a creative way

[51:37] find you maybe you're finding it

[51:39] difficult

[51:40] to hold your memory of the greatest

[51:43] orgasm to hold your memory of the

[51:46] greatest meal of the greatest massage of

[51:49] the greatest whatever ones

[51:53] skydive

[51:55] or you felt fully free or something

[51:59] and you cannot hold can't hold that in

[52:01] your mind

[52:02] had a voice within you that you think of

[52:04] as your thinking voice

[52:06] saying what this is nonsense reality is

[52:09] not safe it's dangerous there's all kind

[52:12] of rabid dogs out there there's all kind

[52:14] of like there's germs in miserable germs

[52:17] coming from the from the bats coven you

[52:21] know there's all kind of poisonous food

[52:23] if I could add food poisoning from

[52:25] thinking I'd eat some delicious thing

[52:27] you know your mind is talking like that

[52:29] to you

[52:30] I might maybe I'll die I have a stroke

[52:32] if I feel too good or something you'll

[52:35] feel if I didn't keep tight control of

[52:37] everything

[52:38] so there's voices talking to you like

[52:40] that and ask them

[52:41] then you can think you can meditate by

[52:44] being thinking too Descartes did you

[52:47] just start with the default feeling as

[52:49] good as you can

[52:51] and the default

[52:52] visual perception of being in the best

[52:54] place that you have

[52:56] and a false emotional feeling of being

[52:59] with the best people that you can be and

[53:01] people you never met but you idolize

[53:03] maybe some movie star maybe some Royal

[53:06] figure maybe some Olympic Athlete or and

[53:09] if they're all there with you in subtle

[53:12] body form

[53:13] [Music]

[53:14] and so you've tried to put all of your

[53:17] processes in the optimal mode what you

[53:20] also now are thinking as sharply as you

[53:24] can think you're thinking like Einstein

[53:27] doubting whatever

[53:29] and now doubt the dangers of these

[53:31] things

[53:32] doubt the reality what is death at your

[53:35] freedom what is it where you leave the

[53:37] body you leave the body every night when

[53:39] you fall asleep you go unconscious and

[53:41] you have a dream and then usually not

[53:43] that bad and then you wake up and you

[53:45] maybe feel more rested in the next day

[53:47] so whatever it was when you slept you

[53:50] weren't in nothing

[53:52] there was no nothing to be afraid of so

[53:56] defend your good feeling

[53:58] on the emotional sensual

[54:02] visual sensory

[54:05] and Consciousness levels

[54:08] defended with your thinking level

[54:11] by thinking critically

[54:13] and how you are indoctrinated to be

[54:15] afraid of God

[54:16] afraid Jesus won't come

[54:19] afraid of

[54:21] wild animals afraid of germs afraid of

[54:24] all the many things we're afraid of

[54:26] why should you be afraid of him

[54:28] you survived him

[54:30] you survive being unconscious every

[54:32] night

[54:34] survive being in a world with dangerous

[54:35] dictators

[54:37] who might not have

[54:39] actually Buddha says you've survived

[54:41] many previous lives

[54:43] and you now hear an Enlightenment

[54:46] so now imagine

[54:48] you're on the brink of becoming fully

[54:50] enlightened that is to say not just

[54:52] imagining that reality is good but he

[54:56] says coming to know that it's good

[54:59] omnisciently knowing that it's really

[55:02] really good

[55:04] so be in the moment of omniscience

[55:07] meditate that you are imagine that you

[55:09] are Buddha

[55:19] [Music]

[55:26] so I remember all previous lives so I

[55:29] have been every considerable kind of

[55:31] being

[55:33] and the second thing is once I know all

[55:35] my own previous lives to Infinity

[55:38] I can see that all other beings have

[55:40] been there with me in the infinite

[55:43] previous rise we've all been entangled

[55:46] infinitely

[55:48] in this vast ocean of energy that is the

[55:52] universe

[55:53] where there's no nothing

[55:55] but there's only something in infinitely

[56:00] therefore there's Infinite Energy

[56:02] it's infinite

[56:04] there's nothing undone in it

[56:06] we are part of its doneness

[56:09] in fact

[56:10] it's one with us it is us

[56:13] we are that energy we're a form of that

[56:16] energy

[56:17] that is conjured up by Miss knowing

[56:21] field of being separate from the larger

[56:23] field

[56:25] we somehow did that

[56:27] but now we're visualizing ourselves as

[56:29] one with it that's what we will be when

[56:32] we're a Buddha

[56:34] we will be that without being numb to

[56:36] any part of it

[56:38] so the Bliss we will feel of its of

[56:41] infinity will be so powerful

[56:44] that it can fully permeate

[56:47] every

[56:48] tortured feeling of finitude on the part

[56:52] of every being

[56:54] it can be fully empathetic

[56:56] feeling with every being every suffering

[56:59] of every being

[57:01] and yet it also

[57:03] simultaneously feels that being from

[57:06] within its own inner core

[57:08] has blissfully infinite tool

[57:11] only having

[57:14] shielded itself

[57:16] out of fear and misknowing and

[57:19] misunderstanding and misperceiving

[57:22] having shielded itself into not being

[57:25] part of everything

[57:26] not being one with everything

[57:31] so at that time though

[57:34] we realized that we and all the other

[57:36] beings in our infinite entanglement have

[57:38] always been one with this infinite

[57:41] energy which we call which the Buddhists

[57:45] call

[57:45] [Music]

[57:49] prabhaswara

[57:51] the clear light of openness

[57:56] [Music]

[57:58] the clear light of openness

[58:01] [Music]

[58:02] infinite energy which is not a white

[58:05] light

[58:06] it's got a dark light

[58:08] it's got a red light

[58:11] it's not a green light

[58:12] it's not a yellow light

[58:15] it's a transparent Crystal Light

[58:18] [Music]

[58:22] and now I return from this amazing

[58:25] imagined moment

[58:27] which is encompasses an infinite past

[58:31] towards an imagined moments that

[58:35] Encompass an infinite future

[58:38] since space time is also one thing but

[58:41] it will not be a moment disconnected

[58:43] from past and future

[58:44] which a materialist might think was a

[58:47] great salvation of being anesthetized

[58:49] but none to be numb to everything

[58:52] but no Bliss is not numbness Bliss is

[58:56] infinite Joy pleasure orgasmic

[58:59] expansion

[59:01] orgasmic surrender

[59:04] Delight

[59:06] and infinite because folding its way

[59:09] through infinite limitated Bas embracing

[59:14] them into the degree which they are

[59:16] capable of opening themselves emptiness

[59:21] best translation for it is openness

[59:23] [Music]

[59:30] and in your knowing it

[59:32] your confidence knowing their future

[59:35] moment when they will also know it

[59:38] so it all becomes a little bit playful

[59:43] perhaps

[59:44] and becomes a matter of artistry

[59:47] and the infinite energy becomes your

[59:50] palette

[59:51] and also your brush and also your canvas

[59:58] and you become a poet

[1:00:01] and an artist had a sculptor of worlds

[1:00:05] you don't create them

[1:00:07] we sculpt them to optimize

[1:00:09] the experience of the beings

[1:00:12] who can use them as always to infinite

[1:00:15] openness

[1:00:19] and Beyond The Duality

[1:00:22] finiteness and infiniteness

[1:00:26] finally

[1:00:28] Beyond The Duality of finally and

[1:00:30] initially

[1:00:31] beyond the ideology of being and nothing

[1:00:35] beyond all realities inexpressible in

[1:00:39] any word

[1:00:40] but knowable

[1:00:42] by every one of you

[1:00:45] in your deepest loving

[1:00:48] kind

[1:00:49] of creative heart

[1:00:51] [Music]

[1:00:54] and every little bit of lovingness and

[1:00:58] kindness

[1:00:59] and openness

[1:01:01] [Music]

[1:01:05] right now

[1:01:06] forever

[1:01:23] [Music]

[1:01:30] [Music]

[1:01:56] okay ding

[1:01:59] don't have my meditation bill

[1:02:01] and what's up okay

[1:02:04] thank you Bob this has been fascinating

[1:02:07] our time together

[1:02:11] I hunger to go deeper but next time next

[1:02:14] time

[1:02:16] to our audience please share this

[1:02:21] Sun seed wisdom talk with your dear ones

[1:02:24] that it's going to continue to stream on

[1:02:26] Facebook and YouTube and on our website

[1:02:30] sunseed.org please send me a link you

[1:02:33] know and I'll definitely I'll send you

[1:02:35] the whole thing uh but uh for our

[1:02:38] audience you can go to sunseed.org

[1:02:40] forward slash wisdom talks and thank you

[1:02:44] all for joining us today thank you thank

[1:02:47] you thank you so much Bob good afternoon

[1:02:50] good night good morning to you wherever

[1:02:53] you are oh man

[1:02:57] um

[1:03:01] [Music]

[1:03:03] be blessed Shalom

[1:03:06] assalamu alaikum jairam om Namaste amen

[1:03:14] May the long time sun seed shine upon

[1:03:18] you

[1:03:20] [Music]

[1:03:44] foreign

RT
AuthorRobert Thurman

Watch more from Robert Thurman on YouTube.

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Buddhism-consciousnessReincarnation-rebirthDeath-afterlifeMaterialism-critiqueContinuity-mind

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Frequently Asked Questions

Thurman argues that the burden of proof falls on materialism, not Buddhism. We have never experienced nothingness or the end of consciousness—only its continuation. The law of thermodynamics states energy is never destroyed, only transformed. If mind is a form of energy, it logically persists when the body ceases to serve as its instrument.
Thurman contends that nothingness cannot be a knowable state because no one has ever experienced it. To imagine nothingness as dark, peaceful, or restful is to have imagined something, contradicting the claim. Believing in it without evidence is blind faith masquerading as science and enables recklessness by removing perceived consequences for actions.
When we sleep, we lose conscious awareness but do not experience the unconscious state itself. Time has no meaning while asleep. We simply wake again with continuity of experience. This mirrors dreams: the body lies still while the mind experiences complete worlds. This suggests consciousness can exist independently of the physical body.
Yes, according to Thurman. Believing consciousness continues actually strengthens ethics. If your actions shape future circumstances across lifetimes, prudent and compassionate choices become rationally motivated. You can plan, be responsible, and still enjoy life—these are not mutually exclusive.
Thurman argues that institutional science has become a rationalization tool that projects materialism without empirical evidence. The claim that consciousness ends is not scientific discovery but cultural mythology. True empiricism would acknowledge that we have never observed nothingness or the end of consciousness, only its continuation.
Thurman suggests Buddhism aligns with direct experience: consciousness is continuous, actions produce consequences, and every being possesses awareness. Materialism claims death ends all this, yet offers no evidence and contradicts our actual experience of continuity. Buddhism's emphasis on cause and effect (karma) is more logically coherent and doesn't require blind faith.
Energy is never destroyed, only transformed. If consciousness or the life force is a form of energy, it cannot vanish when the body dies—it only changes form. Just as energy persists in different states in the physical universe, the mind's energy would persist beyond the dissolution of the physical brain.

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